Thursday, November 02, 2006

A short Bible quiz

Here are four passages written by Jews.

One of them was written by somebody who believed God would restore corpses from the dust they dissolve into.

One of them was written by somebody who believed God would not restore corpses from the dust they dissolve into.

One of them was written by somebody who believed that if a corpse was totally destroyed, God would restore the corpse from the elements it was originally made from.

One of them was written by somebody who believed that if a corpse was totally destroyed, God would creare a brand new body from new materials.

Passage A

All the bodies crumble into the dust of the earth until nothing remains of the body except a spoonful of earthly matter. In the future life when the Holy One, blessed be He, calls to the earth to return all the bodies deposited with it, that which had become mixed with the dust of the earth, like the yeast which is mixed with dough, improves and increases and it raises up all the body. When the Holy One, blessed be He, calls to the earth to return all the bodies deposited with it, that which has become mixed with the dust of the earth improves and increases and raises up all the body without water.

Passage B

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Passage C

"I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed.

Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man's beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law."

Passage D

Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Of course, it is quite easy. Paul wrote passages B and D, because he did not think resurrection involved the corpse being restored. According to Paul, the corpse died and people got a new body, made of new materials.

This totally contradicts the Gospels, where the resurrected body of Jesus was the body which went into the ground, complete with all its flesh, bones and wounds.

Paul clearly had no concept of a Gospel-type of resurrection.


Blogger Huldah said...

Hi Steve, posted a comment on your june 2006 re good and evil post. God the Father hates child sacrifice, does not forgive the NATIONS for practicing it, and avenges the deaths of the innocent.

8:29 PM  
Blogger Huldah said...

oh, forgot to mention the means, invasion and terrorism. any coincidence that terrorism arose at the time abortion was being legalized around the world? Any coincidence He is using the SAME people to get the point across? The people sent to Israel to avenge the deaths of those sacrificed to Molech were from BABYLON, ancient IRAQ.

8:32 PM  
Blogger Steven Carr said...

I thought God loved the nations who practiced child sacrifice?

Ezekiel 20:25-26 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn —that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'

Did God hate the Jews, and never forgave them for practicing child sacrifice?

God allowed child sacrifice because he wanted people to be horrified.

Most people today want child sacrifice banned because they are horrified by the idea.

God might be horrified by child sacrifice, but he apparently also thinks it is a useful way to get followers.

10:30 PM  
Blogger Lara said...

The Resurrected Jesus had the same body, but it was different - he could appear in locked rooms, which suggests a type of spiritual body. Yet he was still physical - people could touch him and he could eat fish.

5:39 PM  
Blogger Steven Carr said...

Could the body before the reusrrection walk on water, and be Transfigured?

Paul is convinced that , come the resurrection, people will not have stomachs, nor a need for food.

1 Corinthians 5 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both.

Paul just has no concept of a corpse rising, as in the Gospels.

2:59 AM  
Blogger beepbeepitsme said...

Very interesting post. ty

3:25 AM  
Blogger Lara said...

But Paul compares the resurrection of Christians to the resurrection of Christ. How does that work?

9:50 PM  
Blogger Steven Carr said...

Presumably Paul thought that we too would beomce life-giving spirits, just as he believed that the second Adam became a life-giving spirit.

10:25 PM  
Blogger Daniel said...


Nice post. A serious point that is lost on most Christians is the viability of the argument that early Christians didn't believe in the Jewish concept of a Resurrection, nor in the particular resurrection interpreted today.

5:18 AM  
Blogger Moffitt the Prophet said...

"Paul clearly had no concept of a Gospel-type of resurrection."

Could you try and proove that?

PS you know in the 1 Cor. passage the greek says soulish body and spiritual body, not natural and spiritual.

2:06 PM  
Blogger Steven Carr said...

Soulish body makes as little sense in English as it does in Greek.

The word Paul uses is 'psyche', which Paul uses to mean life.

It is what Adam received when he was given life (See Gen 2:7) and it is what you lose when you die.

Paul says that people who rely on their living body have no hope, because the living body will die. It is powered by psyche and so will perish when the psyche is lost.

But Paul says people who are building a spiritual body will be resurrected. The spirit will give life to them.

This is why he calls the Corinthians foolish for wondering how a corpse can be revived. It was a body powered by psyche (life) and the life has gone.

Hence Paul contrasts the first Adam with the second Adam , when he writes 'The first Adam became a created being, the second a life-giving spirit'.

And the two things are as different as the examples Paul gives of different things - birds, animals, fish, the sun, the moon.

Just as a fish does not turn into the sun - a 'living' body cannot turn into a spiritual body.

3:07 PM  
Blogger Moffitt the Prophet said...

Paul's main contrast seems to be between the person controlled by the 'psyche' (soul), and the person controlled by the 'pnevma' (spirit).

5:40 PM  
Blogger Moffitt the Prophet said...

So do you disagree with Wright's assessment of continuity and discontinuity in the resurrection body?

5:42 PM  
Blogger Steven Carr said...

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul's main contrast is between the *body* which is powered (not controlled) by life, as opposed to the spiritual body that is got at resurrection.

Paul thinks the difference between the two is like the difference between a fish and the sun.

Even Wright cannot spin away Paul's words completely.

On page 367 of Resurrection of the Son of God, Wright has to concede that even he agrees that it is perfectly reasonable that 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about an exchange of bodies - the original corpse being lost.

'Though Moule is no doubt right that Paul can envisage here the possibility of 'exchange' (losing one body, getting another one) rather than 'addition', as in 1 Corinthians 15, we should not lose sight of the fact that even if such an 'exchange' were to take place the new body would be more than the present one.

10:28 PM  

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